Give It Away Now

So none of you good folks that are reading this are likely to be new to the idea that there’s a lot metric butt load of free content out there on the internet. Here I’m talking strictly about the legal, self published stuff. There are comic strips, novels, music, movies and more and all of this costs you absolutely nothing. It seems crazy and a lot of people really don’t understand it. I have been and will continue to be not only a cheerleader but an active participant in this community for years now and even I’m only beginning to “figure it out”.

For some people this seems to be mostly about finding a way to make inroads into the traditional publishing model. The thought being, if I can get a large enough fan base, then I can get the attention of the “gate keepers” at the big publishing houses and they’ll print my stuff and sell it. This has worked with varying degrees of success for authors like Scott Sigler, Pip Ballantine, and JC Hutchins, who all have struck deals with big labels. For others like PG Holyfield, Nathan Lowell, and Tee Morris their efforts have lead to deals with smaller publishers (and in Tee’s case publication of his non-fiction with big houses).

The traditional road is not one that others seem to be striving for. There’s a more “do it yourself” flair in authors like Cory Doctorow and Matt Selznick. While neither would eschew traditional publishing (and Cory has been published by Tor), it seems that they want to use all possible channels to get their stuff out there and cut out the middle man. That’s not to say that the aforementioned authors aren’t open to all ideas, I’m just talking about where their focus seems to be to me at the present time. Matt talks quite a bit about the neo-patronage idea. If I understand it correctly (and he may not have used these precise words), it’s about finding a smaller number of fans and dealing directly with them. I think that’s laudable.

So, why am I writing about this? Well two blog posts have come to my attention recently.

In the first, JC Hutchins let us know that the 7th Son sequels are not going to be picked up by his publishers thanks to the first novel not meeting their sales goals. He also says that he fears that the free model working as it has for some may be a fleeting moment and that he will no longer be contributing to it, at least not for a while. I felt saddened by his news, but I have to ask, is that me being selfish? If I truly want to be supportive of a fellow artist whose work I enjoy, shouldn’t I be more okay with his decision? I should, but I’m soooo used to that teat. Rather than being patient and waiting to purchase the works when/if they come out, the little voice in me wants to lament that I won’t get the fix I’ve come to expect. I mean I purchased Personal Effects: Dark Arts, but I didn’t purchase 7th Son. Intentions to buy it aside, that money still sits in my pocket and not his and I gave him only half of the financial support I could have.

The other blog post was from a source I’d never heard of. Astonishing Adventures Magazine is shutting it’s doors. John Carlucci says, “We deserve to get paid for what we create.” And you know what? That’s a valid way of thinking. The magazine wasn’t generating the revenue it needed to and so it closed. He also said, “I’m tired of killing myself and not making the smallest of footsteps ahead.” That’s worthy of consideration too.

So, is “free” dead, simply dying, or what? Well I think that it’s too early to tell. I, for one, certainly hope not and I intend to continue putting out free content, while hoping to figure out how to get paid in the meantime. But this whole thing raises a question for me. Do we “deserve to get paid”? Should we kill ourselves, spending all of our spare time and energy in shaking our butts and trying to “get ahead”?

I think the answer to that, at least for me, is no and no.

I don’t get to decide that I “deserve” to get paid. Now that’s not to say that I don’t think what I write is worth something. And yet here I be, writing words I have no expectation of earning a nickel for. I think that for me, it’s about writing something that’s worth your time. If you decide that that time is worth your money, well that’s your call. Would I like to get paid? Oh absolutely. Money is great. I’d love to quit the day job and spend hours and hours creating. Even then though, isn’t it the audience that decides whether or not we deserve to get paid? If I don’t buy JC’s book (provided I am capable financially) then isn’t that me deciding that he didn’t deserve it? If I don’t buy it then he didn’t earn my money, did he? (And for the record I do intend to buy it. He did earn every red cent that I will eventually give him.) keep in mind, I’m not certain of everything in this paragraph, this is me thinking.

One thing I think I am sure of though is that I’m not killing myself for anything. Maybe that means I don’t have what it takes. If I’m not willing to shed blood, sweat, and tears and shake my tail feathers as hard as some out there do, then maybe I won’t make it. I think I’m okay with that. I do want to write. I do want to write professionally. I will sweat for that. I will lose sleep over it. I will likely even cry over it at some point. But proverbially kill myself? Sacrifice my every waking moment or very nearly? No, I don’t think I’m in a place to do that, especially for zero/nominal return. Kudos to those of you who make the sacrifice and I hope it pays off.

So all of this said, why do I put out free content? I don’t expect that it will get me published. I don’t think it will get me a lot of kudos/feedback, though it has garnered me more than not podcasting has. This whole podcasting thing started out as and continues to be about me creating more and learning more. I’ve also made a lot of friends and met a metric butt load (can you tell I’ve got a new pet phrase?) of awesome people. I’ve written more as a result and am trying to hone my craft (that doesn’t sound too writerly at all, does it?). So that’s why I podcast and that’s what I expect. That’s why I give it away. If it has any side benefits, like Random House or Dragoon Moon Press offering me a contract or me getting an agent, then I’m not gonna cry. Ultimately though, even if it does, it’s up to the audience to decide what my writing is worth in terms of dollars and cents.

Am I right or am I waaaay off base here?

UPDATE

Matt Selznick clarified his neo-patronage concept. Here ’tis:

Hi Scott — great post; thanks for including me in it. I wanted to clarify a few things.

It’s nice to be included in the same sentence with Cory — yeah, we share some DIY sensibilities, it’s true — and we’re both (he on a larger scale than me, of course) published by third parties. You mentioned Tor with Cory — my first book, “Brave Men Run — A Novel of the Sovereign Era” is published by Swarm Press and hasn’t been available in it’s self-published paperback form since July of 2008.

You mentioned neo-patronage. Neo-patronage doesn’t have anything to do with dealing directly with a small number of fans. Neo-patronage is a compensation model that asks everyone who takes value from their experience of a piece of art to compensate the artist accordingly. The idea is that the audience is the arbiter of value… if you think the experience of reading “Brave Men Run” for free online is worth $5.00, or $20.00, or $50.00… great! If you think it’s not worth anything, fine.

Under neo-patronage, if you enjoy a book, that author did, in fact, earn the right to be compensated by you, since the author provided you with a service — an experience you would not have otherwise had and, presumably, you enjoyed. So I disagree with you there — even if you haven’t paid the author, they still earned the right to be paid.

When someone does work or performs a service, they deserve to be compensated — just like when you go to your day job and do your work, you deserve to be paid whether or not the boss actually pays you. You’d be put out if you didn’t get paid for work you did, right?

That’s the thinking behind neo-patronage. Pay what you think the work is worth, and never assume that something available “for free” has no value.

37 thoughts on “Give It Away Now”

  1. Free is not dead, it never will be. Long before the internet and social media people were creating for free, its just that that internet had the ability to put that free stuff in front of a metric butt load of eyes, and/or ears. But free as a means of making a living, should always be examined. I mean the words themselves are almost a contradiction. That is not to say It can't work, it can and has for many a person, but it's something that should be examined regularly, especially if its your primary source of income. Now free as a hobby, as a means of self fulfillment, as a means of self expression…. that's a different story entirely, and something that shouldn't ever stop, and if someone wants to pay you for it…. that's even better. :)anyway, that's my 2 cents.

  2. True enough. And I'm glad there are folks out there using it as a means to a financial end and having some degree of success. I wish them all much good fortune.Until I'm ready to make that leap though, and it won't be done without much introspection, I'mma just look at it as a hobby.

  3. I feel like I came into podcasting backwards. I had an indie house (DragonMoon) ready to publish Chasing the Bard, and started podcasting to market that.My Ace deal was influenced by podcasting, but not solely sold on that. The editor wanted to know my numbers, but they weren't so massive that they expect me to sell a gazzilion copies based on that. And I was not able to get them to let me podcast the whole book. Instead I will be doing some anthology podcasting set in that world.And I have to admit after Hutch's news I am more OK with that.All that being said I will remain a podcaster. I have my EalC and a couple of other project that if they don't make money I am fine with that. I enjoy them for what they are- a bit of fun, and a way to communicate with people I consider distant friends.I know I am dancing on a fine line between what produces money and what never will, and I feel I am still working out the balance.There is still a basis for free, but making money off free is a method- and methods don't always work because there are just so many variables.Hope this ramble makes sense 🙂

  4. Free is not dead, it never will be. Long before the internet and social media people were creating for free, its just that that internet had the ability to put that free stuff in front of a metric butt load of eyes, and/or ears.

    But free as a means of making a living, should always be examined. I mean the words themselves are almost a contradiction. That is not to say It can’t work, it can and has for many a person, but it’s something that should be examined regularly, especially if its your primary source of income.

    Now free as a hobby, as a means of self fulfillment, as a means of self expression…. that’s a different story entirely, and something that shouldn’t ever stop, and if someone wants to pay you for it…. that’s even better. 🙂

    anyway, that’s my 2 cents.

    1. True enough. And I’m glad there are folks out there using it as a means to a financial end and having some degree of success. I wish them all much good fortune.

      Until I’m ready to make that leap though, and it won’t be done without much introspection, I’mma just look at it as a hobby.

  5. Very interesting posts. I admit that the networking, Facebook, Twitter, blogging took up more time than creating. AAM was provided free in several forms, but the hardcopy was available for purchase on Amazon. We sold very few copies. You did have almost 50k reads on all 7 issues on Issuu. One would hope that those numbers would translate, at least, a couple of hundred bucks per issue to pay contributors. It didn't.The marketplace is the marketplace.I have a horror webserial on iTunes called “Fierce Cravings” with three episodes now available free. There are 1700 subscribers with a projection of 8k by serial end. The serial has been well received, but not a single donation toward production has been made. $1 from half the people would be fair. Hell, half that would show they respect the creators.I'm willing to admit when the models don't work (for me that is). I'm really happy when others find success.JDC

  6. I used that “pet phrase” the other day, got it from Michael R. Mennenga on the Dragon Page Cover to Cover podcast.I think one point of giving your stuff away for free is to prove to people that you're work is worth the money it will cost them to get it (or other works by you) if or when it comes out in other formats. I think it works to build a fan base when your work connects with people and is of a great quality. I think it's a great way to get your name out there. I have no idea if podcasting my first couple novels could get me a publishing deal – I'm not going to hold my breath. If that happens, I would be beyond thrilled, but that's not why I'm going to do it. Honestly, I love writing, and I would love to share my stories with people. If they pay me for it, that would rock, but I'm just hoping for some good feedback. I've heard a lot of the great podiobooks authors say this in interviews, and I'm so glad for the success they've found and deserve. If I can get to a point where I'm able to write more because it's bringing in extra income, that would be a dream come true. I'm an audiobook junkie, and I have always thought it would be cool to make an audiobook version of my books, even before I found podiobooks.com – which I found by searching for “free audiobooks.” I'm so thankful that it's out there and has formed a community of people who love what I love, great stories. Great comments everyone, and thank you all for your great fiction that you've allowed us to listen to free of charge, my 1 1/2 hours of commuting each day is actually a time I enjoy thanks to you guys and many classic audiobooks.

  7. True enough. I think maybe some people lose sight of it and think that it can do a lot more that it can.

  8. Hey Pip. Thanks for telling me about this. Somehow I missed out on how you got your start. Glad to know you'll stay on the scene. I think there's a balance to be struck but like so many things it's hard to know where.I think it made perfect sense. At least as much as my post did.

  9. Hi John, thanks for stopping by. Yeah I think when social networking gets more time than creating we need to examine the balance. I'm on most social media and would be if I were a writer or not, but I do need to write more.It's apparently hard for anyone to make a buck or three off of this and I'm still trying to figure out why. I think part of it may be that there's not a real easy way for people to pay, but even that's not it entirely. Even with an easy way most would continue to consume for free.

  10. Yeah I would hope that people would decide at some point that what I'm making is worth their money, but when even the ones getting HUGE numbers aren't making any money off of this… Of course they're not directly asking in most cases. Escape Pod and the other pods are the only big payers that I know of that do it off donations.Thanks for contributing to the conversation!

    1. True enough. I think maybe some people lose sight of it and think that it can do a lot more that it can.

  11. I feel like I came into podcasting backwards. I had an indie house (DragonMoon) ready to publish Chasing the Bard, and started podcasting to market that.
    My Ace deal was influenced by podcasting, but not solely sold on that. The editor wanted to know my numbers, but they weren’t so massive that they expect me to sell a gazzilion copies based on that. And I was not able to get them to let me podcast the whole book. Instead I will be doing some anthology podcasting set in that world.
    And I have to admit after Hutch’s news I am more OK with that.
    All that being said I will remain a podcaster. I have my EalC and a couple of other project that if they don’t make money I am fine with that. I enjoy them for what they are- a bit of fun, and a way to communicate with people I consider distant friends.
    I know I am dancing on a fine line between what produces money and what never will, and I feel I am still working out the balance.
    There is still a basis for free, but making money off free is a method- and methods don’t always work because there are just so many variables.
    Hope this ramble makes sense 🙂

    1. Hey Pip. Thanks for telling me about this. Somehow I missed out on how you got your start. Glad to know you’ll stay on the scene. I think there’s a balance to be struck but like so many things it’s hard to know where.

      I think it made perfect sense. At least as much as my post did.

  12. Very interesting posts. I admit that the networking, Facebook, Twitter, blogging took up more time than creating. AAM was provided free in several forms, but the hardcopy was available for purchase on Amazon. We sold very few copies. You did have almost 50k reads on all 7 issues on Issuu. One would hope that those numbers would translate, at least, a couple of hundred bucks per issue to pay contributors. It didn’t.
    The marketplace is the marketplace.

    I have a horror webserial on iTunes called “Fierce Cravings” with three episodes now available free. There are 1700 subscribers with a projection of 8k by serial end. The serial has been well received, but not a single donation toward production has been made. $1 from half the people would be fair. Hell, half that would show they respect the creators.

    I’m willing to admit when the models don’t work (for me that is). I’m really happy when others find success.

    JDC

    1. Hi John, thanks for stopping by. Yeah I think when social networking gets more time than creating we need to examine the balance. I’m on most social media and would be if I were a writer or not, but I do need to write more.

      It’s apparently hard for anyone to make a buck or three off of this and I’m still trying to figure out why. I think part of it may be that there’s not a real easy way for people to pay, but even that’s not it entirely. Even with an easy way most would continue to consume for free.

  13. I used that “pet phrase” the other day, got it from Michael R. Mennenga on the Dragon Page Cover to Cover podcast.

    I think one point of giving your stuff away for free is to prove to people that you’re work is worth the money it will cost them to get it (or other works by you) if or when it comes out in other formats. I think it works to build a fan base when your work connects with people and is of a great quality. I think it’s a great way to get your name out there. I have no idea if podcasting my first couple novels could get me a publishing deal – I’m not going to hold my breath. If that happens, I would be beyond thrilled, but that’s not why I’m going to do it. Honestly, I love writing, and I would love to share my stories with people. If they pay me for it, that would rock, but I’m just hoping for some good feedback. I’ve heard a lot of the great podiobooks authors say this in interviews, and I’m so glad for the success they’ve found and deserve. If I can get to a point where I’m able to write more because it’s bringing in extra income, that would be a dream come true. I’m an audiobook junkie, and I have always thought it would be cool to make an audiobook version of my books, even before I found podiobooks.com – which I found by searching for “free audiobooks.” I’m so thankful that it’s out there and has formed a community of people who love what I love, great stories.

    Great comments everyone, and thank you all for your great fiction that you’ve allowed us to listen to free of charge, my 1 1/2 hours of commuting each day is actually a time I enjoy thanks to you guys and many classic audiobooks.

    1. Yeah I would hope that people would decide at some point that what I’m making is worth their money, but when even the ones getting HUGE numbers aren’t making any money off of this… Of course they’re not directly asking in most cases. Escape Pod and the other pods are the only big payers that I know of that do it off donations.

      Thanks for contributing to the conversation!

  14. So many good and thought provoking blog posts in the last few days that I need to lay down and nap for several days as the brain is spinning, not sure of which thought to land on and start processing first.It seems the question of whether or not to pod cast books for free is based a lot on the motivation of the author. I got heavily (still have 20gb to listen to)into podiobooks when I 'got unemployed' at the beginning of last summer, so the FREE bit was a big bonus for me. But I have become complacent in *voting with my wallet* and not donated to the on going podcasts I regularly enjoy. Sorry writers, I DO believe your works are worth compensation as I have enjoyed your works and look forward to every episode. I will begin correcting this, even more so as I further recover from unemployment and poor financial planning on my part.On the amount of work needed to put out a podiobook, I would like to offer something. I have been working a sound board (mainly doing live sound)since 1999 and find myself missing it quite a bit recently. I have wanted to get into mixing/production for some time. I would like to offer that help to authors wanting to podcast their work and willing to take a chance on a newbie. I will have the computer capability in a couple months to do this as well as planning on getting pro level programs to allow me to do more with excellence. I have no idea what this will look like, just that I want to do it. If it ever adds up to more, well, that could be a fun problem to deal with should it ever come up.Did I mention that I work cheap. Basically free. Maybe some guidance/assistance in getting what is needed to do things right, but an adult beverage or three when we meet will be fine.

  15. Hi Scott — great post; thanks for including me in it. I wanted to clarify a few things.It's nice to be included in the same sentence with Cory — yeah, we share some DIY sensibilities, it's true — and we're both (he on a larger scale than me, of course) published by third parties. You mentioned Tor with Cory — my first book, “Brave Men Run — A Novel of the Sovereign Era” is published by Swarm Press and hasn't been available in it's self-published paperback form since July of 2008.You mentioned neo-patronage. Neo-patronage doesn't have anything to do with dealing directly with a small number of fans. Neo-patronage is a compensation model that asks everyone who takes value from their experience of a piece of art to compensate the artist accordingly. The idea is that the audience is the arbiter of value… if you think the experience of reading “Brave Men Run” for free online is worth $5.00, or $20.00, or $50.00… great! If you think it's not worth anything, fine. Under neo-patronage, if you enjoy a book, that author did, in fact, earn the right to be compensated by you, since the author provided you with a service — an experience you would not have otherwise had and, presumably, you enjoyed. So I disagree with you there — even if you haven't paid the author, they still earned the right to be paid.When someone does work or performs a service, they deserve to be compensated — just like when you go to your day job and do your work, you deserve to be paid whether or not the boss actually pays you. You'd be put out if you didn't get paid for work you did, right?That's the thinking behind neo-patronage. Pay what you think the work is worth, and never assume that something available “for free” has no value.Thanks for the opportunity to clarify those points!

  16. So many good and thought provoking blog posts in the last few days that I need to lay down and nap for several days as the brain is spinning, not sure of which thought to land on and start processing first.

    It seems the question of whether or not to pod cast books for free is based a lot on the motivation of the author. I got heavily (still have 20gb to listen to)into podiobooks when I ‘got unemployed’ at the beginning of last summer, so the FREE bit was a big bonus for me. But I have become complacent in *voting with my wallet* and not donated to the on going podcasts I regularly enjoy. Sorry writers, I DO believe your works are worth compensation as I have enjoyed your works and look forward to every episode. I will begin correcting this, even more so as I further recover from unemployment and poor financial planning on my part.

    On the amount of work needed to put out a podiobook, I would like to offer something. I have been working a sound board (mainly doing live sound)since 1999 and find myself missing it quite a bit recently. I have wanted to get into mixing/production for some time. I would like to offer that help to authors wanting to podcast their work and willing to take a chance on a newbie. I will have the computer capability in a couple months to do this as well as planning on getting pro level programs to allow me to do more with excellence.

    I have no idea what this will look like, just that I want to do it. If it ever adds up to more, well, that could be a fun problem to deal with should it ever come up.

    Did I mention that I work cheap. Basically free. Maybe some guidance/assistance in getting what is needed to do things right, but an adult beverage or three when we meet will be fine.

    1. Hey Anthony! Yeah there’s a lot out there to digest.

      I think we should all do a lot more voting with our wallet. I know I plan on it. And you know what, it wouldn’t take much. $.50-$1 per podcast you listen to per month is chicken feed, but multiplied by the number of listeners it’s significant.

      Naturally if you’re unemployed that’s a different thing.

      As far as your offer of production help goes, that’s MUCH appreciated. I got a lot of help in producing my own by helping produce others. And I suspect if you put your offer “out there” you’ll get some response.

      Any chance you’ll be at Balticon?

  17. Hi Scott — great post; thanks for including me in it. I wanted to clarify a few things.

    It’s nice to be included in the same sentence with Cory — yeah, we share some DIY sensibilities, it’s true — and we’re both (he on a larger scale than me, of course) published by third parties. You mentioned Tor with Cory — my first book, “Brave Men Run — A Novel of the Sovereign Era” is published by Swarm Press and hasn’t been available in it’s self-published paperback form since July of 2008.

    You mentioned neo-patronage. Neo-patronage doesn’t have anything to do with dealing directly with a small number of fans. Neo-patronage is a compensation model that asks everyone who takes value from their experience of a piece of art to compensate the artist accordingly. The idea is that the audience is the arbiter of value… if you think the experience of reading “Brave Men Run” for free online is worth $5.00, or $20.00, or $50.00… great! If you think it’s not worth anything, fine.

    Under neo-patronage, if you enjoy a book, that author did, in fact, earn the right to be compensated by you, since the author provided you with a service — an experience you would not have otherwise had and, presumably, you enjoyed. So I disagree with you there — even if you haven’t paid the author, they still earned the right to be paid.

    When someone does work or performs a service, they deserve to be compensated — just like when you go to your day job and do your work, you deserve to be paid whether or not the boss actually pays you. You’d be put out if you didn’t get paid for work you did, right?

    That’s the thinking behind neo-patronage. Pay what you think the work is worth, and never assume that something available “for free” has no value.

    Thanks for the opportunity to clarify those points!

    1. Thanks for the clarification Matt! I’ll update the blog post in a bit to reflect it for those who don’t make it south of the comment box.

      I was trying to make the point that the author earns the $$$ by giving you something you enjoy, but that’s for the reader to decide, right?

      1. Under the neo-patronage model, it’s for the reader to decide how much the experience of consuming the art was worth, and compensate accordingly. It’s not up to them to decide to not compensate at all — unless, of course, they hated the art. The consumer has an obligation in the relationship.

        Unfortunately, neo-patronage is entirely “opt-in,” and only a small percentage of consumers do so. Most are content to enjoy the fruits of the service an artist provides, and move on, like cattle grazing in a field not worrying about where the grass comes from.

        The risk there is, of course, that when the field is over-grazed, the herd starves.

  18. Hey Anthony! Yeah there's a lot out there to digest.I think we should all do a lot more voting with our wallet. I know I plan on it. And you know what, it wouldn't take much. $.50-$1 per podcast you listen to per month is chicken feed, but multiplied by the number of listeners it's significant.Naturally if you're unemployed that's a different thing.As far as your offer of production help goes, that's MUCH appreciated. I got a lot of help in producing my own by helping produce others. And I suspect if you put your offer “out there” you'll get some response.Any chance you'll be at Balticon?

  19. Thanks for the clarification Matt! I'll update the blog post in a bit to reflect it for those who don't make it south of the comment box.I was trying to make the point that the author earns the $$$ by giving you something you enjoy, but that's for the reader to decide, right?

  20. Under the neo-patronage model, it's for the reader to decide how much the experience of consuming the art was worth, and compensate accordingly. It's not up to them to decide to not compensate at all — unless, of course, they hated the art. The consumer has an obligation in the relationship.Unfortunately, neo-patronage is entirely “opt-in,” and only a small percentage of consumers do so. Most are content to enjoy the fruits of the service an artist provides, and move on, like cattle grazing in a field not worrying about where the grass comes from.The risk there is, of course, that when the field is over-grazed, the herd starves.

  21. The analogy of compensation deserved just as one would at their day job is flawed. At your day job you've entered an agreement of compensation *before* working. The proper comparison would one where the content creator walked into a company office, found and empty office/cubicle, and started contributing. At the end of the day/week/pay period that person then walked over to a manager or HR rep and said, this is what I did for you. Please pay me whatever you think fair.

  22. Orion, my point is that it should be pre-supposed that if an artist provides you with an experience, you will compensate them for it. If you accept the neo-patronage model, a tacit agreement is already in place. Just like the day job.Again, the issue is that both parties must opt in and play by the same rules.

  23. The analogy of compensation deserved just as one would at their day job is flawed. At your day job you’ve entered an agreement of compensation *before* working. The proper comparison would one where the content creator walked into a company office, found and empty office/cubicle, and started contributing. At the end of the day/week/pay period that person then walked over to a manager or HR rep and said, this is what I did for you. Please pay me whatever you think fair.

    1. Orion, my point is that it should be pre-supposed that if an artist provides you with an experience, you will compensate them for it. If you accept the neo-patronage model, a tacit agreement is already in place. Just like the day job.

      Again, the issue is that both parties must opt in and play by the same rules.

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